I was originally responding to a comment made by Jeff where he said that Christians rarely believe what they do because of objective evidence. Or, if they do, they're only using this "evidence" to justify what they already believe. So, I wrote to him. What follows is our conversation. My writing will be in blue and Jeff's will be in red. Here goes.........
Greetings Jeff!
Well, my name is Barrett and I am a Christian who really enjoys your guys' show. It's really challenged a lot about what I believe and caused even deeper introspection when I thought it wasn't possible. I'm telling you, if there's someone out there who has tried harder not to believe than me I would be amazed. I grew up in a Christian home and really got burned by my church. I moved to Austin thinking I would never return to church or religion. I mean, I didn't believe at all. Total atheist. Then I randomly went to the Dominican Republic and was mortified by all the poverty and sickness. Then one night, I heard a voice like my conscience but more telling me "Barrett, there's something more to life than you or your intellect." But then there was this dude who came to speak at our school (UT) named Cliff Knechtle. He wasn't particularly amazing, but he started talking about moral law (and the need for a moral law giver) and the cosmos and that same voice inside of me said "This is truth." And ever since then that independent voice has lead me and it's what I believe to be the Holy Spirit.
Honestly, I'm not scared about death and I'm not trying to fit into a community which are some of the reasons Christians are accused of believing. So yeah, I heard what I believe to be the voice of God and I had a supernatural experience I guess. But my conversion was a little different because I was convinced by someone's argument. But even that wasn't enough. I still search everyday for reasons not to believe, but somehow I am always more convinced as a result. And trust me, it's not because it's what I "want" to believe.
Again, your guys' show is awesome.
-Barrett
Thanks for writing.
No offense, but I think this quote says something relevant about your email:
"If you talk to God, you are praying. If God talks to you, you have schizophrenia."
- Thomas Szasz
- Thomas Szasz
I've heard Knechtle speak at UT. In my opinion, the only reason atheists don't rip his arguments to shreds when he's doing one of his open-air events on the campus mall is that *he controls the microphone*. If you'd care to share one of his arguments, I can demonstrate how poor it is.
-Jeff Dee
Nah man, I'm not offended.
But I think you should also keep something in mind: Just because someone can win an argument against another person doesn't mean you're right. If that were the case God would exist and, at the same time, not exist because I've seen (and taken part in) debates that went both ways. So, I wasn't won over to Jesus because Cliff Knechtle killed every single person's argument because surely that doesn't happen. But I heard something convincing and I researched more about it.
For example, someone came to Cliff saying that there was no written evidence of Jesus except for the Bible. Therefore, He probably didn't exist. Cliff then demonstrated that this was false. In fact, none of the four gospels were written down until 25 years after the events they describe. Until then, the events were spread through word of mouth. After all, Jesus told his disciples to go and tell everyone what they had seen. He didn't say, "Hey everyone, go in your houses and write all this stuff down." Anyway, Cliff demonstrated that there was a wealth of historical references to Jesus beside the Bible. So, this led me to a personal search. Here are just some of the secular, Jewish, and Christian historical references to Jesus, His followers, and the crucifixion:
Many early antagonistic secular writers such as Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian, Suetonius, and Phlegon mention Jesus and His movement with disdain. What do they have to gain by doing this?
Also, the early Babylonian Talmud and the historian Josephus mention Jesus and several Biblical events. These are historical references which are unfriendly.
Also, the early Babylonian Talmud and the historian Josephus mention Jesus and several Biblical events. These are historical references which are unfriendly.
Next are Christian sources like pre-New Testament creedal confessions by early Christians who had nothing to gain and everything to lose by making claims that Jesus existed and did what He did. And obviously New Testament writers claim the historical Jesus. Then, there are post-Apostolic writers like Clement, Ignatius, Quadratus, Barnabas, Aristides, Justin the Martry, and Hegesippus. These people followed the Apostles closely and recorded much of their teachings.
This is what I'm getting at: Historical references of Jesus of Nazareth are not JUST in the Bible and they are not made ONLY by Christians. The overwhelming unbiased evidence points to the fact that Jesus was a dude who live in the first century A.D and that He walked, talked, ate, and crapped. He might have been right, wrong, or crazy...but He existed.
Hey, thanks for writing me back, dude!
-Barrett
Comments inserted below.
Comments inserted below.
Nah man, I'm not offended.
But I think you should also keep something in mind: Just because someone can win an argument against another person doesn't mean you're right. If that were the case God would exist and, at the same time, not exist because I've seen (and taken part in) debates that went both ways. So, I wasn't won over to Jesus because Cliff Knechtle killed every single person's argument because surely that doesn't happen. But I heard something convincing and I researched more about it.
Fair enough. This is why we have the principle of Burden of Proof. Those who posit the existence of a thing bear the responsibility for providing evidence to establish the truth of their claim. So in the case of claims of an historical (and supernatural) Jesus, the burden of proof falls on those who claim that a supernatural Jesus actually existed.
For example, someone came to Cliff saying that there was no written evidence of Jesus except for the Bible. Therefore, He probably didn't exist. Cliff then demonstrated that this was false. In fact, none of the four gospels were written down until 25 years after the events they describe. Until then, the events were spread through word of mouth. After all, Jesus told his disciples to go and tell everyone what they had seen. He didn't say, "Hey everyone, go in your houses and write all this stuff down." Anyway, Cliff demonstrated that there was a wealth of historical references to Jesus beside the Bible. So, this led me to a personal search. Here are just some of the secular, Jewish, and Christian historical references to Jesus, His followers, and the crucifixion:
Many early antagonistic secular writers such as Cornelius Tacitus, Lucian, Suetonius, and Phlegon mention Jesus and His movement with disdain. What do they have to gain by doing this?
Their motives, while interesting fodder for speculation, are not terribly relevant. The question is, do their writings really support the existence of a supernatural Jesus? I think the anser is a resounding NO:
Cornellius Tacitus claims no firsthand knowledge of Jesus' existence, but is merely repeating the beliefs of Christians. He also describes Christians and Christianity as, "hated for their crimes", "abominable superstition", "the great reservoir and collecting ground for every kind of depravity and filth", convicted, "not so much on the charge of arson, but of hatred of the entire human race". Are the Christians who ask us to take Tacitus as evidence of an historical (much less supernatural) Jesus also suggesting that we should accept his description of Christianity itself? He also claims that Nero persecuted Christians, but there is no other historical evidence for this (the term "Christian" was not in use in the first century, and Nero reigned around 60 AD). Nero did persecute Jews, and so it appears that Tacitus is either doctoring history or repeating hearsay without checking his facts. There is also evidence of later 4th century tampering - the passage is never quoted by any of Tacitus' contemporaries.
Lucian was a satirist, and not an historian, merely repeating what Christians believed in the 2nd century. This is not evidence of the historicity of Jesus, nor of his supposed magical powers.
Suetonius does not mention Jesus by name. "Chrestus" does not mean "Christ"; Chrestus was a common name meaning "good", and appears many times in Latin inscriptions having nothing to do with Christianity. Note that even if Seutonius meant Jesus when he wrote Chrestus, this would only establish the existence of Christianity in Rome around 112 AD - *not* the existence of an historical Jesus, and certainly not that he performed any actual miracles. On the other hand, Suetonis explicitly reported that Caesar Augustus bodily rose to heaven when he died. When you cite Suetonius' writings as proof of a real supernatural Jesus, are you suggesting that we should believe in Caesar Augustus' ascension as well?
Philegon 's text , along with the Talmud reference you mention below, is a critique of Christianity, attempting to refute it. At most, it establishes that Christianity already annoyed people as far back as the 1st century - a point that is not disputed, but is much more clearly illustrated by Tacitus. It does not establish the existence of an historical (much less supernatural) Jesus.
Also, the early Babylonian Talmud and the historian Josephus mention Jesus and several Biblical events. These are historical references which are unfriendly.
Also, the early Babylonian Talmud and the historian Josephus mention Jesus and several Biblical events. These are historical references which are unfriendly.
Flavius Josephus' paragraph mentioning Jesus does not appear in quotes from or copies of Josephus' writings until the beginning of the 4th century. For example, it is absent from Origen's 2nd century writings, even though Origen quotes Josephus extensively in defense of Christianity. The first person known to have quoted the Jesus paragraph was Bishop Eusebius, who is on record stating that it is permissible for Christians to tell lies so long as it furthers the kingdom of God. Many scholars believe that Bishop Eusebius himself was the forger. Most scholars, including most fundamentalist scholars, admit that at least some parts of this paragraph cannot be authentic.
Next are Christian sources like pre-New Testament creedal confessions by early Christians who had nothing to gain and everything to lose by making claims that Jesus existed and did what He did.
Such sources would only establish that believers in a supernatural Jesus existed before the New Testament was written, not that Jesus had actually existed, and certainly not that Jesus had any miraculous powers.
And obviously New Testament writers claim the historical Jesus.
By your own admission, the books of the Gospel were not written down until 25 years after the events they claim to depict. That alone would be sufficient to raise valid questions about their hstorical accuracy. However, biblical schholars are in wide agreement that Mark, the first Gospel to be written, was written in the late 60s or very early in the 70s CE. That would mean that it was written closer to 35 years after the crucifiction. You may ask how big a difference 10 years makes. Well, considering that the average life expectancy in Biblical times was significantly shorter than today, it could make a LOT of difference. The original Apostles would be that much more likely to have already died. You ARE aware that biblical scholars are in wide agreement that the Gospels were *not* written by the disciples after whom they are named, and therefor NOT eyewitnesses, aren't you? It also goes to show that your sources are not in agreement with the concensus of biblical scholars, which raises valid questions about the motives of your sources. Why bother fudging the dates by 10 years, if (supposedly) the actual evidence supports their claims?
Then, there are post-Apostolic writers like Clement, Ignatius, Quadratus, Barnabas, Aristides, Justin the Martry, and Hegesippus. These people followed the Apostles closely and recorded much of their teachings.
The earliest of the figures you mention, St. Justin Martyr, wasn't born until 100 CE. This makes it pretty much impossible for him to have 'followed the Apostles closely' other than by reading the Gospels attributed to them. As a result, nothing these post-Apostolic wrote say lends any weight to the historical existence of a supernatural Jesus.
This is what I'm getting at: Historical references of Jesus of Nazareth are not JUST in the Bible and they are not made ONLY by Christians. The overwhelming unbiased evidence points to the fact that Jesus was a dude who live in the first century A.D and that He walked, talked, ate, and crapped. He might have been right, wrong, or crazy...but He existed.
That would all be fine, except I think I've just shown that the interpretation you've been fed about the evidence clearly IS biased, and wouldn't begin to prove that Jesus had any special powers even if it WASN'T biased.
Hey, thanks for writing me back, dude!
-Barrett
What, you're not going to even attempt to refute the charge that you might be schizophrenic? I think that issue ought to be of somewhat more pressing concern to you than all this Bible wrangling. Seriously, if you're not right in the head then you shouldn't trust your own interpretation of the evidence for Jesus, and you shouldn't be wasting time talking to me. You should be talking to a psychiatrist. I would LOVE to hear you say that your comments about hearing the 'voice of God' were merely metaphorical, and not literal. But if you can't say that, then I strongly urge you to seek professional psychiatric assistance.
-Jeff Dee
Jeff,
Sorry about the delayed response. I have swine flu. (and, oh, how I wish I was kidding) Again, thank you for thoughtfully and respectfully responding to my arguments. But I feel like you're waiting for me to freak out and say something like, "LOOK, I'm right! You just have to have faith!" But I promise, I'm not. And after reading your responses to my arguments, I would hardly say that you "ripped them to shreds." But here- I'll indulge you a little bit:
1) Schizophrenia- Sorry, I forgot to respond to the schizophrenia quote. Sure, I might be a schizophrenic. I'm willing to admit that. But you are also claiming that the other billions of people throughout the world who claim to hear from their god are also schizophrenics and that the only people who are not suffering from schizophrenia are atheists. And aside from the fact that that's a bit condescending, it's not likely. Yes, I could be hearing voices. This isn't something I've never thought of. But have you studied schizophrenia? Schizophrenics are not logical. Often times, they can't finish their sentences, are paranoid, aggressive, and have hallucinations. So, if hearing God's voice is my only symptom, a psychiatrist would say this is not sufficient to diagnose me. Also, no one who has ever had personal contact with me has ever suspected schizophrenia and it doesn't run in my family. BUT, I will admit it could be possible although not likely.
And just a side note- You make it sound like Christians are the only ones who have never questioned their beleifs. You said on your show that at least 99% of Christians have never even looked at the evidence critically. But I can also tell you that 99% of atheists have never heard about any of this stuff we're talking about and have never questioned their faith. Because, you have to admit that it's a pretty big leap of faith to claim there is no god, and why would one not question those beliefs? Maybe it's because it's what they WANT to believe, which is what you've accused Christians of.
2) Historical References- Historical references don't have to be made by historians. And I never claimed that all those people were historians. Sure, some were satirists, poets, writers, politicians, and yes some historians. And no, I don't believe Ceasar rose from the dead. The reason is that all other accounts I've heard are contrary. Just because one person said it isn't convincing for me. But the harmony of the various accounts of Jesus (i.e. he existed, he taught certain things, and he died on a cross) lead me to believe it's true.
3) "Widely Accepted"?- What exactly do you mean by "widely accepted"? Because the dates you gave from wikianswers.com are surely not that. In fact, many scholars and archaeologists have placed the writing of the gospels somewhere between these dates:
Matthew- A.D. 70-80
Mark- A.D. 50-65
Luke- A.D. early 60s
John- A.D. 80-100
Paul's Letters- A.D. 50-66
All I'm saying is that there are other estimates. Actually, there are LOTS of estimates that are contrary to wikianswers.
Furthermore, here are when (according to wikipedia and other sources) the authors died:
Matthew- A.D. 90
Mark- A.D. 68
Luke- A.D. 84
John- A.D.100
Paul- A.D. 64
And are you really going argue that life expectancies weren't that high back then so the apostles PROBABLY didn't live that long? That's pure speculation.
And you've basically taken every one of my arguments and said "No, that's biased" or "They must have tampered with history". Also, what does it prove that the term "Christian" wasn't used in the first century?
4) Disciples of the Disciples- Saint Quadratus of Athens didn't die until A.D.129, so chances are he was born before A.D. 100. Barnabas didn't die until A.D. 61. When you say that Justin the Martyr was the earliest, I don't know where you got this information. Therefore, what some of these people say surely lends weight to the existence of a historical Jesus.
-Barrett Raven
P.S. I watch your guys' show a lot and am quite embarrassed by some of the rediculous Christians that call in and say stuff like "How about I come down there and kick your ass!" That's so freaking stupid. I sincerely hope I do not come off like some of them. I really really appreciate you writing me back and taking the time to do this.
He never wrote me back after this. There are a lot of other things I wanted to say and maybe in time I'll get to say them. But I hope this makes sense and is somewhat coherent. Enjoy...
-Barrett
He never wrote me back after this. There are a lot of other things I wanted to say and maybe in time I'll get to say them. But I hope this makes sense and is somewhat coherent. Enjoy...
-Barrett